"Anyways" is Dialectic

In a forum for editors, language experts, and linguists, I asked this question:

Is it proper to say "anyways" for anyway?
I look at it as part of evolved Internet language like Aolese.
It is said the Irish say "anyways" - even before Internet came in.

About a week of discussions on the word followed but in between, some five repartees were deleted. Discussions suddenly sidetracked when “molly-wooly” worded a repartee that appeared flaming to Foxfirebrand after he tried to go academic. He had touched a sensitive cord among culture creatures and heaven knows what the postee meant. Foxfirebrand took it badly.

“What an acrimonious thread,” he was saying. “And the moon is yet to come in distant time…..” You understand about foxes? Foxfirebrand, being true to his name, was lamenting, yet as a comic. He referred to the moon that was his hope for comfort, and his hole where he was thinking of heading to, to leak his wounds. He he!

I can not exactly capture how Foxfirebrand put it. It was beautiful poetry my “anyways” had churned out. I was looking to the day I would write a story and I smiled to myself. Let the thread hatch first until it would be pregnant enough. But, holy cow! The moderator named something like drum came in and axed them off. I cannot now remember what the fox wrote.

This was Drum’s work:

mgarizona This message has been deleted. Reason: a somewhat off-topic conversation that slipped into personal and patronising comment.

foxfirebrand This message has been deleted. Reason: a somewhat off-topic conversation that slipped into personal and patronising comment.

mgarizona This message has been deleted. Reason: a somewhat off-topic conversation that slipped into personal and patronising comment.

foxfirebrand This message has been deleted. Reason: a somewhat off-topic conversation that slipped into personal and patronising comment.

kota This message has been deleted. Reason: a somewhat off-topic conversation that slipped into personal and patronising comment.

This happens often when a word or phrase is being examined in the Forum and culture becomes tangent to the discussion.

Fox’s self pity was soon forgotten but the Irish remembered themselves at every turn.

So, what about “anyways”? The exchanges were as follows –

……………

Ed the Editor (US – American English) came first -

Hi Kota,

Almost everywhere in the U.S., "anyways" is considered sub-standard and ungrammatical. You will never see it in writing, unless someone is trying to reproduce ungrammatical language or is trying to be funny. You will hear it in uneducated speech in some areas of the country.

kota (Philippines)

I thought so. I needed an answer to show someone insisting on it - so I quoted you.

mgarizona (US – American English)
Careful to distinguish between 'anyways' as a conjunction, which is sub-standard, and 'anyways' as an adverb--- meaning "in any way," "in any respect"--- which is slightly archaic, but is by no means incorrect.

foxfirebrand (Native of various farflung regions)

"Anyways" is dialectic, and common in vast areas of the American Southeast-- which is to say Appalachia. Calling it "sub-standard" is hard to defend as anything but judgmental, and "uneducated" is inexcusable. Believe it or not, speakers of some variants "of no prestige" have excellent educations, even Doctorates-- even advanced degrees in English language and literature.

Some dialects (languages?) in Europe get the same treatment-- Catalan and Napulitan come to mind.

kota (Philippines)

You know, this came about when I went to a supposed writers’ site. Then I read of “anyways” used by a writer and I questioned it. To my consternation, the writers were introduced as Irish. I have nothing against them personally, but I would not like to be recommending writers’ sites to budding writers where the English employed is dialectic.

[Five exchanges deleted here.]

DavyBCN (UK – English)

Could a mild-mannered British English speaker (and teacher of English) borrow an American phrase? Chill out guys!

Two points. "Anyways" is commonly used by Irish speakers of English as a change of subject word - maybe in the same way United States speakers of English use "whatever"? I have no idea what standards either of these words may break.

On the subject of standards. Whose standards? And the standards of when - now or last year? It really does a huge disservice to learners of English to claim that there is any one standard by which the quality of a person's language is judged. While the majority of grammar structures in English are fixed, their use is not always. As a teacher, I explain the differences between British and US English almost every week, and usually try not to say how unnatural some US uses are to me, such as "have gotten". But I would be a very poor teacher if I didn't explain the different usages - or if I complained about usages that I find non-standard. I use non-standard deliberately, because "have gotten" is non-standard to me. Why should I insult people from the USA by saying it is sub-standard?

If there was one standard of English we would all be speaking and writing like Chaucer or Shakespeare, But I imagine some of their contemporaries complained as well!

panjandrum (Ireland: English-speaking)

Anyways is used as a conjunction by a number of well-educated and fastidious people around here. It is the dialect of their part of the country, as they are well aware. They would not write it in a formal communication as they consider it to be NON-standard.

.,,(Australia: Australian)

[Note: Name is Robert, he said, in his private message.]

I have read anyways and I have heard anyways and I have not made an assumption of negativity about the speaker or writer because they used a word that I do not.

The meaning is always contextually clear to me.

I am quite certain that I use idiomatic words and phrases and I slip into dialect when it pleases me yet I consider myself to be quite educated and cultured.

The use of anyways will reveal something of the geographical origins of the user and perhaps a penchant to cock a snoot at someone telling them how to talk proper.

We have a very colourful and varied language and not much of it is sub-standard.

foxfirebrand (Native of various farflung regions)

Quote:

Originally Posted by .,,

The use of anyways will reveal something of the geographical origins of the user and perhaps a penchant to cock a snoot at someone telling them how to talk proper.

We have a very colourful and varied language and not much of it is sub-standard.

Agreed.

And about "sub-standard"-- to criticize it as judgmental in no way hints at the abandonment of standards. Being judgmental is not the same as exercising judgment-- it means exercising judgment in a narrow-minded or inflexible way, and approaches bigotry in connotation.

The deleted argument against "non-standard" of course equivocated on the term "judgmental," treating it as a neutral or even positive term.

.,, (Australia: Australian)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavyBCN

If there was one standard of English we would all be speaking and writing like Chaucer or Shakespeare, But I imagine some of their contemporaries complained as well!

It seems quite appropriate that you mention the language of Shakespeare as I have read in a number of different publications that The Appalacian Mountains region retains one of the closest living links to the language of The Bard.

I suspect that William Shakespeare would not have criticised the use of anyways in any form.

maxiogee (Invisible Ink City, Chatland, Location: Dublin, Ireland)

Quote:

Originally Posted by .,,

I suspect that William Shakespeare would not have criticised the use of anyways in any form.

Neither anyway nor anyways are in his works.

I hear "anywho" as an American version of the Irish use of anyways.

Collins English Dictionary says anyways is US and Canadian, the Oxford Concise calls it N Amer, and Chambers refers to it as dialect and especially US.

I'm quite familiar with it as a topic changing gambit, and with its twin brother anyways up used as a cut to the chase expression.

Rozax (USA)

May I put in that the use of 'anyways' in the US sounds odd to me?

panjandrum (Ireland: English-speaking)

As a conjunction, Dickens used it - as direct speech:

Quote:

'Anyways,' said the damsel, 'I am glad punishment followed, and I say so.

Our Mutual Friend

That's the earliest reference given by the OED.

.,, (Australia: Australian)

Quote:

Originally posted by maxiogee

Neither anyway nor anyways is in his works.

You missed my point.
Shakespeare was quite adept at inventing new words to fit his requirements and that is why I suspect that he would not have criticised the use of anyways or psychobabble or human resources manager even though he used none of these terms himself.

Shakespeare was interested in function and form.

mgarizona (US – American English)

Quote:

Originally Posted by .,,

You missed my point.
Shakespeare was quite adept at inventing new words to fit his requirements and that is why I suspect that he would not have criticised the use of anyways or psychobabble or human resources manager even though he used none of these terms himself.

Shakespeare was interested in function and form.

Well said.

Actually, Shakespeare might have used the adverb 'anyways.' There's a play called Edward III, which is often attributed to Shakespeare. (Peter Ackroyd makes a good case for it in his Shakespeare biography.) In it, King Edward orders:

Go to thy daughter; and in my behalf
Command her, woo her, win her any ways ...

Note that in Shakespeare (and generally until about 1800) 'any thing,' 'any body' and 'any where' are always written as two words.

In any event, of course Shakespeare would have embraced anyways (conj), just as Dickens does. Because it's colorful, and because the use of the word tells us something about the user. By being non-standard (YAWN!!) it becomes narratively salient. I have to imagine though that Shakespeare would have made it part of Toby Belch's vocabulary, and not Viola's.

My only real argument here has always been this: if someone from Japan or Saudi Arabia or Timbuktu who is trying to learn English--- no mean feat--- writes to this forum to ask about a word like 'anyways,' do you really think they're interested in the vagaries of dialectical geography? (And when I say dialectics, I mean just that, not broad-strokes BE, AE, IE, OzE usage.)

I just have to imagine that they're better served being instructed in the standard language--- I know, I'm a snob!--- and then if one day they end up in Appalachia they'll figure out soon enough that the paradigm has shifted.

foxfirebrand (Native of various farflung regions)

Quote:

Originally posted by mgarizona

I just have to imagine that they're better served being instructed in the standard language--- I know, I'm a snob!--- and then if one day they end up in Appalachia they'll figure out soon enough that the paradigm has shifted.

There we go again-- "instructed in the standard language," you say. And exactly which variant is that? The largest bloc of English speakers in the world are Asians-- with more speakers of (basically American) English in China than in the U.S., and English growing in influence, not diminishing, ever since the end of the Raj in India. I have cyber relationships with people my age in India who decry the AE their children and grandchildren are speaking-- that variant has supplanted the one they learned, and the global corporate "outsourcing" of telemarketing and other phone-bank work to workers in the Asian Subcontinent is "exacerbating" this tendency.

If this sounds like AE chauvinism, I only offer it in counterpart to your apparent assumption that BE is the "standard"-- mayhap that paradigm you mentioned has shifted so abruptly it passed your notice.

Finally, the query that started this thread was about "anyways," and it turns out that's a more complicated subject than you perhaps consider it to be. "It's wrong, don't use it" is not the whole story. In fact, wasn't the original thread-starter here because he "needed an answer to show someone insisting on it (i.e., the valid use of anyways)?

It turns out the person "insisting on it" had a point-- and it might well have been one of the teachers this learner of English has to satisfy.

I've found it useful to tell learners that the complexities we sometimes (often) get into here are one area of interest, and the needs of putting a correct answer on an exam, or meeting the limited expectations of a teacher-- are another. Supplying those simple guidelines is one function of this forum, but it is the adjunct to a web-based dictionary, and it delves into nuances of usage not covered in the entries-- some of which are complex indeed, going into detail about idiomatic usage and differences among registers and variants.

Expanding on all this is part of the raison d'être of these forums-- your objections notwithstanding.

kota (Philippines)

Quote:

Originally posted by panjandrum

As a conjunction, Dickens used it - as direct speech:
Our Mutual Friend

'Anyways,' said the damsel, 'I am glad punishment followed, and I say so.
That's the earliest reference given by the OED.

Meaning, "anyways" was only being used to characterize the damsel - to show her level of education.

panjandrum (Ireland: English-speaking)

As I said earlier, there are places where anyways is a natural part of everyday vocabulary. Its use says nothing about the level of education of the speaker.

kota (Philippines)

“Anyways,” therefore, is dialectic as somebody already said.

As dialectic, my friend said, as others had said, it is –

…something many writers use in order to establish period or to authenticate a character's background. For instance, a writer trying to depict the 1950s south would use words and phrases that were common in the 50s as well as in the south. That's often called dialect. It creates the 'atmosphere' of the piece.

Thank you all for the discussions.

[DESPITE MY SAYING “THANKS,” SOME HAD WANTED TO GO ON AND SEEK AFFIRMATION THAT…..]

maxiogee (Invisible Ink City, Chatland, Location: Dublin, Ireland)

Quote:

Originally posted by mgarizona

Well said.

Actually, Shakespeare might have used the adverb 'anyways.' There's a play called Edward III, which is often attributed to Shakespeare. (Peter Ackroyd makes a good case for it in his Shakespeare biography.) In it, King Edward orders:

Go to thy daughter; and in my behalf
Command her, woo her, win her any ways...

The rest of the quote shows though that he meant, "Win her by any means" and not the conversation ending "anyways"

Command her, woo her, win her any ways,
To be my mistress and my secret love.
I will not stand to hear thee make reply:
Thy oath break hers, or let thy sovereign die.

mgarizona (US – American English)

Quote:

Originally posted by maxiogee

The rest of the quote shows though that he meant, "win her by any means" and not the conversation ending "anyways"

Yes, that's what the adverb 'anyways' always means, which is not dialectical or other-than-standard but a perfectly ordinary English-language word.

(No offense intended to words, which are out-of-the-ordinary or any user thereof!)

It's the use of 'anyways' as a conjunction (an adverbial conjunction to be precise) that's the question here.

Actually, let me ask you this since the prevalence of this usage in IE has been mentioned many times:

If to end a conversation--- conjunction as segue--- someone said simply Anyway ... in lieu of Anyways ..., what would that invoke? Would it be considered wrong? Does it peg someone as an outsider?

maxiogee (Native of: Invisible Ink City, Chatland!, Location: Dublin, Ireland)

Quote:

Originally posted by mgarizona

Actually, let me ask you this since the prevalence of this usage in IE has been mentioned many times:

If to end a conversation--- conjunction as segue--- someone said simply Anyway ... in lieu of Anyways ..., what would that invoke? Would it be considered wrong? Does it peg someone as an outsider?

Just wondering.

Good question. Both are used here, and those who favour "anyway" would probably insist that the others are ignorant!

mgarizona (US – American English)

Quote:

Originally posted by maxiogee

Good question. Both are used here, and those who favour "anyway" would probably insist that the others are ignorant!

Et voilà! Same difference in the States, outside the occasional holler at least. Thanks!

kota (Philippines)

Quote:

Originally posted by maxiogee

... those who favour "anyway" would probably insist that the others are ignorant!

They may not insist but they would think so. I had been educated under Americans and so to me, it is not proper.

Some Irish writers I know admit of using the word in making comments - but not in their writing. The exception is when they have to characterize a persona in their story.

Armani (Native of: d)

I'm Irish and anyways is certainly used sometimes. I have a very high standard of English and I am not aware that the word anyways as an adverb is in any way incorrect.

maxiogee (Invisible Ink City, Chatland, Location: Dublin, Ireland)

Quote:

Originally posted by Armani

I'm Irish and anyways is certainly used sometimes. I have a very high standard of English and I am not aware that the word anyways as an adverb is in any way incorrect.

Welcome Armani (nice suit!)
No one has called it "incorrect" or "wrong".
It has been stated that it is dialect, or regional.

……………

This is me, kota, again. Let me continue –

Despite my saying “thanks” midway in the discussions, some had wanted to go on and seek affirmation…...

….. AFFIRMATION THAT “anyways” IS NOT TO BE CALLED WRONG OR INCORRECT BUT DIALECT.

In other words? Take your pick.

Would you go for dialect?